Orlando grunts in a most barbaric manner. Emrys slaps Orlando heartily on the back. Orlando slaps Emrys heartily on the back. Emrys says: so Emrys says: what do you think O? Orlando says: well there is good and bad points on both sides Emrys says: good, bad, ugly....I want to hear it Freya pops up through a trapdoor in the floor. Shamgar hehs. Freya grabs Orlando and slams him down so hard the ground shakes! Freya grins evilly. Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: right now i want to hear the bad points on our "side" so i can fix them Freya says: Let's poke him with soft cushions! Emrys says: should i note that earlier there were 21 people on? over half playrs, and only one wiz second? Freya says: I'm just following Em around cause I'm nosy Shamgar nods. Shamgar says: ok, did you guys bring the hot pokers? Shamgar says: lets start the interrogation. Shamgar throws his head back and cackles with glee. Orlando says: me need format so me no speaking barb talk Thanatos arrives. Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Emrys says: wait Emrys says: you're eternal aren't you? Emrys says: brset clearspeak Emrys smiles happily. Orlando chuckles politely. Orlando says: testing are it Orlando says: cool Orlando says: ah Freya says: woo hoo thunderstorm! Orlando says: ok, now where do we begin, you were saying something about players being on but i didn't understand the context Orlando says: if you were refering to something i relayed earlier about there was a majority of wizards and wiz alternates on, i believe this to be true in most cases when i log on Emrys says: well there we get into perceptions that differ then. or maybe you're on at times when that's true. Emrys says: what we have rght now is very very typical for this time on a sunday night. Emrys shrugs. Emrys says: it's also fairly normal to see after 9pm on weeknights near the end and middle of the week Orlando says: if you recall my point about that was that there were not really any old chars any more that were just true chars Emrys says: and we've maintained it tonght for over an hour at least Emrys says: i don't know your points i just got here Orlando says: what you see is that the old chars have either disappeared or become wizards Grog forms himself out of a nearby mass of roaches. Emrys says: i would say you're a living example of the contrary Emrys says: you were gone for a long time and now you're back and apparently enjoying yourself Emrys says: henrik is another example to the contrary Emrys says: so is galrog Emrys says: and his friend callon Emrys says: also war Emrys says: that's 3 people logged on right now that are 'old' players that aren't wizards taht were gone and came back Emrys says: dees is another, though she's not been around enough latley that i'd say she's "back" Emrys says: Not that I necessarily think you're wrong or something.... but these are the things I see that give me what may be an opposite perspecitve. Emrys says: I'd also wonder why its a bad thing when old palyers come back and wiz, since that often means they're very interested in teh game again, maybe even more than before. Emrys says: player wizzing is something of the ultimate in player retention IMO Orlando says: this isn't something i said was bad, i was answering your question about the players being on Emrys says: it means they care enough about the mud they want to add back to it Orlando says: you posed a question Emrys nods. Orlando says: sure, the goal of becoming a wizard is to help the mud grow with new areas Orlando says: if there aren't new wizards then it becomes stagnant Orlando says: i told unk when i came back it was great to see so many new wizards Orlando says: my point about the players is that it seems to be dominated by wizards or wiz alternates Orlando says: if you want to look at that in any bad way, it's that we need more new players. you brought up some new players. Emrys nods. Orlando says: but the tendancy of most muds is to end up with majority wizards, this is nothing new Shamgar hehs. Thanatos arrives. Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Shamgar says: speak of the devil Grog grins evilly. Emrys says: what's exciting to me is that DR is so much less that than it used to be Thanatos says: who? Orlando says: i find DR to be more than it used to be Emrys says: when i started we'd be over half wiz, and 80% of them were 4 hours idle Shamgar says: someone that logged in Shamgar grins evilly. Orlando says: well as far as functional wise Freya says: Thanatos is Death, not the Devil Emrys says: the majority of the wizzes on now have been doing a lot of work lately Thanatos looks drunk. Thanatos looks innocent. Freya sweeps Stoopid the zombie across the dance floor. Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Emrys says: 2 yeasrs ago it was generally common to have skyfoxx,emrys,chaosmonger,and unk logged on, and goshawk Emrys shrugs. Stoopid the zombie sweeps Freya across the dance floor. Orlando says: yeap, i remember those days Thanatos hiccups. Orlando says: that's about the time the mudlib changes came about Emrys says: well Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Emrys says: the mudlib changes had in some cases literally been written for years Emrys says: it was at that time we were allowed to finally implement them Emrys says: becaues the people opposed to them finally got out of the way Freya says: dang...haven't seen hok in a while Reflection arrives. Grog says: no kidding. Hok whistles: hi all Freya says: could just be that I haven't seen her though Grog says: And pav was on yesterday. Brawn poking around as well. Reshia whistles: grunt Shamgar whistles oddly. Shamgar whistles: woo, long time no see Hok arrives. Freya says: Pav was one of the first people I grouped with here Hok whistles oddly. Grog grins evilly at Hok. Freya waves at Hok. Hok whistles: no kidding Reflection says: HOK! Hok says: hey Shamgar slaps Hok heartily on the back. Orlando says: none of that is an issue with me, i have certainly been complimentary of all the wonderful mudlib changes. i have certainly enjoyed the game feel more since i have been back this time. Freya says: and Hok was one of the first people I met Hok laughs. Hok says: fear Freya says: holy nostalgia, Batman Orlando slaps Hok heartily on the back. Grog grins evilly. Orlando says: if i may, i can recap both the pro and con of my discussion with reflection Hok leaves north. Orlando says: i would like to say that i was surprised at thanatos's rudeness towards reflection when she was talking to me Orlando says: she and i were disagreeing points of rules and there really was no need for insulting her Orlando says: we had civility Emrys says: not having been here I don't know anything about that Orlando says: ok, the big brother thing Shamgar hehs. Orlando says: i think there should be some relaxation of the big brother rules where everyone is afraid to say anything about something in the game Orlando says: i am the kind of player that is somewhat happy when he finds new things and i like to tell other people about what i found Shamgar nods. Orlando says: i like being a fairly interactive player Emrys says: what's stopping you? Emrys is the same way. Orlando says: however i feel like that is really supressed by fear that it's quest stuff and it is forbidden Orlando says: i usually end up bugging chaosmonger instead Grog grins evilly. Orlando says: i feel like he's a safe target Orlando says: if you ask a player about something on the mud, nobody answers out of fear Orlando says: that's been my experience for years Orlando says: and i'm not talking about asking quest stuff Orlando says: it's anything Emrys nods. Shamgar nods. Emrys says: this is a large part of why the mud was dead 2 years ago Emrys says: the admin at the time was very into that Orlando says: i think the fear that someone is going to be banished for saying anything Orlando says: will keep most players silent Emrys says: it's a legacy the current admin has unfortunatley inherited and tried to work away from Reflection says: I think it is worse lately, my personal experience Orlando says: i'm not advocating quest hints or help Emrys says: which personal experience? Emrys points at post 19 3. Emrys says: as an example of things the current admin is trying to do Reflection says: it seems that there is a lot of talk about 'log activity' by the admin, seems that there is a lot of monitoring of players Reflection says: that has nothing to do with player interaction :) Orlando says: wait wait Emrys says: /log/GIFTS, /log/QUESTS, various per-wiz quest logs. Emrys says: you can read them all yourself. Reflection says: I dont have an interest to :) Reflection says: what players do is their own business :) Emrys says: point being you don't have to say "there seems to be" Orlando says: with all due respect to both of you, i'd like to continue Reflection listens to orlando Freya personally enjoys seeing what quests people are doing most often. Freya yields the floor to the gentleman from Florida. Shamgar grins evilly. Orlando says: it doesn't really matter to me if i'm monitored, i don't like that fear that something someone is going to say is going to get them banished Shamgar clones a copy of Robert's Rules of Order. Shamgar grins evilly. Orlando says: you agree that was in the past, i'd say relaxtion of that would be a good change Reflection agrees wholeheartedly with Orlando. Emrys says: i agree with you entirely Grog nods. Orlando says: i think players can socialize without destroying the foundation of the game Orlando says: ok, good Shamgar nods. Orlando says: because i like to talk Orlando says: i have for years pretty much kept to myself though Emrys says: we haven't busted anyone that didn't do something 'with malice aforethought' as long as i've been doing this Emrys agrees wholeheartedly with Orlando. Emrys agrees wholeheartedly with Orlando. Emrys agrees wholeheartedly with Orlando. Orlando says: i agree but like i say nobody will say anything Emrys hehs. Orlando says: even now Reflection says: yes Orlando says: i used to know how to kill the competent fighter Shamgar says: me too. I used to be scared to talk about stuff as well. Even up to when I wizzed. However, once I wizzed I learned from looking at the banish/etc logs that it actually doesn't happen anymore. WHich was a great relief. Orlando says: now i can't remember, things happen when i leave for so long Shamgar says: I think it'll just take time to live down the reputation Shamgar says: Hopefully, punishments will help that along Orlando says: i ask a few players if they know and nobody says anything, i'm sure out of fear Emrys says: from main pub go w,5n,3e,6s,se,2e,2u,get sword from chest Freya says: really it's something where perceptions need to change, by things like this, where wizards and players sit around talking Reflection says: which is silly Emrys says: fighter from main pub is w,5n,8e Orlando says: yeah, that's what i thought Freya says: hafta hit him with the huge sword from the kurgan chest Orlando nods. Shamgar hehs. Emrys says: you can kill him other ways but that's the easiest Orlando says: yeah that's what my memory was thinking too but no players were willing to say anything Reflection says: even if it IS quest info, one shared tidbit isnt going to hurt anything, and you dont always know it is quest information when youhave found something Shamgar says: and even then you have to get lucky. I've killed him in a couple hits that way, or made tons of trips to the pub. Orlando says: but that specific example and it's answer really isn't the point Orlando says: er, its Shamgar says: I think the point em was trying to make is that that isn't a bad thing to give out. Reflection nods. Shamgar grins evilly. Orlando says: but i think we've alll agreed on that so i can move on Emrys says: Since we don't seem to disagree, O, do we have an issue, or are we both interested in letting peopel know this isn't that kind of place anymore? Shamgar says: not that the answer solved your point. Orlando says: there are other things i think could be relaxed and they probably are Emrys says: regarding that particular one Shamgar hehs. Orlando says: since i'm not a wiz, i don't know what the wiz rules are so i don't have accurate info Shamgar says: never know till you ask. ;-) Orlando says: there was always something about wizard players not being able to help work with players Emrys nods. Shamgar nods. Shamgar says: at least at first. Emrys says: itused to be wiz seconds couldnt' do anythign with players at all Orlando says: the rule is grey on me because i know every now and then i'll end up in a party with one Emrys says: we've recently managed to change it quite a bit Orlando says: yeah, that's what i'm thinking Orlando says: like i said, it might have changed, i'm not informed on wiz stuff Orlando says: i may still have that old mentality Emrys says: becaues of compromises the rule requires some degree of rocket science to undersatnd, but we always answer questions, and i'm soon going to be able to rewrite it to be more straightforward Orlando says: there was always a line between the normal players and the wizard players Orlando says: and i felt like the line grew into a rift Emrys says: namely, it's been approved that any wiz second can give things to players now, just like any other player. Grog nods. Emrys nods. Emrys agrees wholeheartedly. Orlando says: it was divided into two sides Orlando says: i was always under the impression if that rule was changed then the two would be brought back closer together Emrys nods. Emrys says: it's been changed, but the mud didn't have the base to make it matter...that's finaly changing Orlando says: well that sounds good Orlando says: and i know first hand you are probably doing your part to try to integrate with other players with locutus Emrys says: one of my goals with the 10th anniv was to change that perception Emrys says: by letting wizzes interact with players a LOT and give them all the party favors...i think it worked to an extent Orlando says: i saw that the other night with that massive party Freya says: yeah, when I wizzed I had to forswear the company of non-wizard players basically Freya says: and that's changed so much Emrys nods. Reflection says: there is still big emphasis on the importance of creators vs. players though, I have heard many wizards maintain that those maintaining and creating areas are more central to the mud than players, this is not true, and it also creates a rift Orlando says: yeah, i think that was a bad policy, freya Reflection says: and these were very recent conversations Orlando says: wait, i can't get into what's being said outside of my scope Emrys nods at Orlando. Orlando says: i have no idea what's being said on wiz channels or wiz boards Reflection says: but it does support your point :) Reflection says: of the rift Freya says: now any wizard player can group with any non-wizard player as long as the right level wizards are in the group and you follow specific guidelines about who leads and a bunch of other BS :) Emrys says: I can't speak of what's said outside my scope either, and I haven't heard those conversations, so keep going, O. Orlando says: i think players tend to have more fun with fewer rules Orlando says: i know rules are important to maintain fair play Emrys nods. Emrys says: that's the nail on the head Orlando says: but the other rules should cover player wizard interaction Orlando says: i think the quest rules would cover that Freya says: Freya says: er Orlando says: no kind of shared quest info Freya says: most wizard/player rules are there to keep lower level wizzes from sticking their foot in their mouth Emrys says: if you mean that wiz seconds should be able to interact with players on the same basis other players do, i agree, and those are hthe rules i'm trying to get implemented Orlando says: ok good Orlando says: and here's why i feel it's a good idea: Reflection says: in what way Freya? Emrys says: like I said the current ones are a lot of compromise, esp betweent this admin adn the previous one that wasn't at all in favor of that Freya says: talking about things they don't know about because of their lack of experience Freya says: or at least most of the rules I agree with are there for that purpose Emrys says: players answeringa question for a player can speculate, and it's taken as speculation usually Reflection says: what do you mean? Emrys says: wizards answering a question are usually regarded as speaking the Truth, no matter how many disclaimers they put on it, and if they speculate, they can mess up a palyer's perception of things Thanatos arrives. Reflection says: shrug, I usually just say I am not sure Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Emrys says: this is why the rules say that low wizzes should refer questions to higher wizzes Reflection says: and I think players understand what those wwords mean :) Emrys says: so those that know the answers are the ones giving them, and we tell the low wiz the answer so they can learn Freya says: which is exactly the goal of that rule...that those who are not sure should let players know they're not sure and tell them where to get a definitive answer Freya says: that's all I mean Freya says: anyway Orlando smiles happily. Freya says: that's pretty much off O's topic Freya quits interrupting. Shamgar hehs. Orlando says: the reason you would want to relax or eliminate those rules are because of perceptions that players have of wizards Emrys says: you certainly aren't telling people you aren't sure of how the rules are enforced or what the admin spends their time doing or wants to see in the future for the mud. Emrys nods at Orlando. Shamgar says: one more addition. That rule if properly understood, would've kept me from sticking my foot in my mouth. ;-) Emrys grins evilly at Shamgar. Emrys ruffles Shamgar's hair playfully. Thanatos arrives. Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Shamgar says: I myself did it, and I know for a fact players take a wizards words as gospel even if they say otherwise. Emrys puts a waffle on Thanatos's head! Reflection says: I tell people my perspective of the politics here, for sure Orlando says: i'm getting confused on which comments are directed to whom Reflection says: just as wizards and players have for years Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Reflection says: including you, Emrys :) Shamgar says: maybe not the original one, but if they share the info with someone else the disclaimer doesn't alway sget passed along. Shamgar yields the floor again. Reflection says: go ahead Orlando Orlando says: thanks Shamgar says: sorry O. Shamgar grins evilly. Freya says: This is your "Whine at the Mayor Day" after all Freya grins evilly. Orlando says: one of the perceptions that i have, whether true or false, is that the group i have before me is highly exclusive Emrys says: We'll name it the Matlock Expressway! Orlando says: in my defense, i didn't ask for this ;-) Orlando says: also in my defense, i haven't expressed public complaint ;-) Shamgar says: nope, we did Orlando says: brb, phone Thanatos arrives. Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Thanatos is now level 19. Emrys applauds wholeheartedly. Freya says: bravo! Emrys greets the room with the mystical Metal Militia hand gesture. You are filled with a sense of awe and power. Freya acknowledges Emrys' presence with the sacred reply. Grog acknowledges Emrys' presence with the sacred reply. Shamgar acknowledges Emrys' presence with the sacred reply. Orlando acknowledges Emrys' presence with the sacred reply. Thanatos smiles happily. Freya bashes Stoopid the zombie over the head. Stoopid the zombie bashes Freya over the head. Orlando says: ok, where was i Orlando says: ah yes Freya says: there's just something about zombies Emrys says: exclusive Orlando says: yes *Thanatos is tired. Orlando says: i like zombies ;-) Thanatos smiles happily at Orlando. Orlando says: which is no surprise to everyone here Orlando stares into space. Midge shouts: Poker Thanatos says: yeah, i only saw you with 4 of them at a time Emrys grins evilly. Reflection smiles happily at Orlando. Orlando says: i have this necropheliac thing going for me Thanatos says: i cant even keep one alive... Grog grins evilly at Orlando. Thanatos giggles inanely. Orlando says: ok, back to the real stuff Reflection says: eeesh :) Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Orlando says: ok, the exclusive stuff Orlando says: this impromptu meeting is somewhat indicative of what i'm talking about Orlando says: i can only speculate what the source of it is but it involves the people of the group i feel is exclusive Emrys says: why do you feel we're exclusive? Orlando says: it's just player perception Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Orlando says: i feel like you all interact more with each other in our barb wizard group and it's hard to get in Emrys says: I obviosuly can't say much to player perception. But is this perception supported by us being here talking to you, or any of the barb guildline stuff, or grouping the other night? Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Orlando says: i felt like more interaction with players would open things up Emrys says: I didn't know Tark or War or Boudicca a few months ago, and I count them all as friends now... friendships that started in random conversations here. Thanatos arrives. Stoopid the zombie staggers in. Thanatos gives bottle of scotch to Stoopid the zombie. Shamgar nods. Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Emrys says: you're certainly right Orlando says: as i disclaimed, i have no truth to support this with, it's just perception Stoopid the zombie gives scotch to thanatos. Orlando says: i've been barbs with most of you for years but i mostly feel odd man out Shamgar says: I didn't know hardly anyone but the people here galeck and chaos until I wizzed. but I'm kind of a loner. Once I wizzed I got to know all /kinds/ of people. most of them players. Reflection says: and what about those players who are not even barbs? Shamgar says: we feel sorry for em? Orlando says: yeah, that's a good point by reflection Thanatos says: that is what frightens me about clans Shamgar grins evilly. Shamgar thumps his chest proudly. Emrys says: Tark isn't a barb. Emrys shrugs. Orlando says: i know you players some because of barbs Emrys says: I'm not a barb! Emrys hehs. Shamgar says: heh, hyrl was even first. Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Orlando says: if it hadn't been for that, i'd probably not Freya says: This is why I pop up whenever there are some people hanging around together, like now Emrys says: Wyn is no barb either, he's another one. Emrys says: Nor Lyndai. Emrys shrugs. Orlando says: well i can't speak for anyone else but myself Shamgar says: I can understand the perception though Thanatos says: it is mals cymbrogi Freya nods. Thanatos says: that's the problem! Reflection says: I think it is improtant to try to understand Orlando's perspective and point even though you may not agree Emrys says: I can understand it too Shamgar says: no matter how many people we know. Em and freya are married, and I've known em for 20 some years. Orlando says: i don't want to feel like i'm included but i don't want to feel excluded Shamgar says: it's always going to seem like we have something we don't share with others here. Freya says: I agree with O...we have some close-knit groups around here Shamgar says: but I don't think we exclude anyone. Another hunk of flesh falls off Stoopid the zombie. Orlando says: i think friends are great, i felt it was more because of the rules of the past Emrys says: people are always afraid to break into what they perceive as a close group, esp one that has any kind of power associated with it Freya says: it's easy to see that as somewhat exclusive Orlando says: and the segregation of wizards and players Shamgar nods. Reflection says: its more than that tho.. Thanatos leaves north. Stoopid the zombie staggers after Thanatos. Freya says: but we're also doing what we can to get to know people Reflection says: its the cohesiveness and homogeneity of teh governing group Reflection says: you are making decision for the mud Emrys says: what homogeneity? Shamgar counts slowly to ten, stops, and then reaches for his feet... Emrys says: we all argue about most everything Nietzsche arrives with an ear-splitting bang. Reflection says: and since you seem to agree on most topics, alternative perspectives are not brought up by people with clout, people other than those in your 'group' feel that they have no voice or clout and things will not be heard or change Orlando says: i don't know anything about internal wiz policy and such Emrys says: There are a lot of things I'd like to see done that Unk or Sky or Luci or Ratik or Uly doesn't want to see, and iit goes across the board. Reflection says: Orlando is one of thsoe who expressed his reluctance to approach the admin because he felt it wouldnt help Emrys says: Go read the /room/vote discussions, they make any recent disagreements look like a trip on the merry-go-round. Orlando says: i'm just a caveman, who fell into some ice, and was thawed out by your scientists Shamgar nods. Freya grins evilly. Grog winks suggestively at Orlando. Reflection says: I think it is diffictult for players to approach you, partly for this reason Orlando says: i don't like to rock the boat Grog says: You're not man. Emrys says: rock and roll Orlando says: nope, i've rocked it before Grog grins evilly. Shamgar hehs. Orlando says: felt bad about it and left for awhile Emrys says: Players are obviously scared to approach admin. But if I hada nickel for the ones that have talked to me even recently and said "wow, I didn't expect you to be so easy to talk to, from what other people have told me"... Emrys counts aloud, slowly, to ten. You reach for your feet... Shamgar says: if it wasn't for people rocking the boat we wouldn't have what we do today. multi-chars, relaxed rules, reviews of punishments, etc. Reflection says: I am not talking about unk or luci or Uly, the most vocal and the most visible of the admin are this group :) Emrys rocks the boat! Emrys says: um Shamgar nods at Emrys. Emrys says: I'm the only $admin in this group Shamgar hehs. Shamgar is a peon. Emrys says: Freya sort of is. Shamgar only has a little w Shamgar grins evilly. Emrys says: But her realm of admin-ness is new wiz docs. Reflection says: I am talking about approachability :) Shamgar hehs. Reflection says: I know you feel you are approachable but Orlando is not the only one who had difficulty approaching you Shamgar says: people approach me all the time. I just can't do anything abou tit. Emrys says: Shamgar can be as unapproachable as he wants. Orlando has more say than he does to me because he's been on the game longer. Shamgar says: in fact, that's how I got to know hyrl. Freya says: watch your language! Orlando says: i hope i'm not coming across as intimidated. i don't feel intimidated. i haven' Grog smacks Shamgar upside the head! Emrys says: Orlando are you having difficulty approaching me? Shamgar hehs. Shamgar says: I mean I can't do anything about the things they approach me about. Orlando says: no, i believe i have covered everything i have spoken Emrys says: Or have you ever when you did approach me, beyond vague apprehension based on what you're "heard" or perceived. Shamgar says: not I can't do anything about them approaching me. Nietzsche says: i have difficulty approching you, emrys Shamgar says: I don't want to do anything about it. Shamgar grins evilly. Nietzsche says: that, however, is MY problem, not yours Shamgar says: which is why I got in trouble, putting my foot in my mouth, incidentally. Emrys says: well you should flesh that out then Niet Shamgar says: trying to make sure I stayed approachable Shamgar snickers. Reflection listens to Orlando. Orlando says: sorry, realized the intimidated was a say and not a tell and couldn't clear all the message Freya says: too many voices! Freya grins evilly. Orlando says: i haven't really brought up these things as emrys said other things would be later covered Nietzsche says: i think a good bit is due to being idle and busy at the same time. it is often difficult to get a real conversation w/ you 1-1 Shamgar says: turn off the ones in your head. it helps. Orlando says: i brought up more social interaction at the first meeting and was directed to wait until a future one Freya nods. Freya says: the second meeting we discussed a few different possible special events to promote interaction Orlando nods. Orlando says: i think the rules may need tuning Freya says: wars, PK tournaments, and a holiday party Orlando says: i support the current rules regarding multiplay and quests Emrys says: someone suggested a dec/jan holidays thing, that would be nice if we can do it Orlando says: i would like to see the player/wiz rules erased though and to remove this fear Emrys says: there's going to be a wizmeet in about two weeks, i'm going to hve a new version of the rules there for discussion Freya says: and the fact that the rules need rewriting for clarity about who can do what and say what with whom Freya types too slow with one hand. Reflection says: Orlando, I know you may be feeling a sense of relief at having shared your views, but I would like to share a bit of our interaction just preceeding this discussion if you dont mind Freya says: anyone know of a good book on one-handed typing? Nietzsche says: don't remember the title, but hook wrote it Shamgar says: I actually saw a driver for linux that is supposed to make it easier. Shamgar says: didn't look at it Orlando says: as long as we don't go back to our poli-sci argument Reflection laughs. Reflection says: ok :) Orlando says: that's about the time thanatos came in Emrys ponders voice recognition software... Reflection says: it was regarding when I first came into the room Freya says: as long as you all vote for me, you'll be fine Reflection says: and things got quiet so I asked you over tell if you had difficulty talking with me her Reflection says: here Freya says: i invented pants, you know Orlando says: nope, i think i have said to them everything i said to you Reflection says: I think I deserve to be heard, no? Orlando says: except the things we disagreed on Nietzsche says: why on earth would you invent pants? you should be shot! Reflection says: and you said that it actually helped you that I am here Nietzsche says: unless they are edible Freya grins evilly. Orlando says: yeah, i needed help remembering everything that was said Reflection says: which to me says at at least a bit about approachability Reflection nods. Reflection says: ok :) Orlando says: if i left something out, remind me Orlando says: i would certainly like to say something about it Reflection says: I think you covered most of the points you made Reflection says: and I am very glad you did :) I want to point out that I encouraged you to approach the admin, rahter than discouraged you Reflection says: several times Orlando says: yes, she has been encouraging me to speak up Reflection says: as I do for most players who express reluctance to speak up Nietzsche says: remember the anon suggestion box at the last gathering? do the same thing, only make it a bboard Orlando says: well if i was going to ever speak up, i was waiting for that next meeting Reflection nods. Emrys says: A lot of the people that do talk to me indicate they were afraid to talk to the admin ebcause you've told them we don't listen and don't care. Nietzsche says: nah, that's a bad idea... it bypasses a problem rather than fixing it Reflection says: such as who? Orlando says: that's quite the contrary Orlando says: she was always encouraging me, and i told her i didn't think it would change anything Emrys says: That's not something I'm going to name names on. Orlando says: that's when we got into our rules debate Reflection grins evilly. Emrys says: The same people that were suprised I was so "approachable" when they did talk to me. Reflection says: this is interesting Emrys says: Not that you didn't tell them to talk, but that they didnt' expect it would really be a good idea based on waht you were telling them, and that it might even get them "big brothered". Emrys says: Whatever that is. Reflection says: well, I do think you are overzealous in your enforcement of rules but that is no secret Reflection says: but I still encourage people to approach the admin Reflection says: with problems Reflection says: in fact, I suggested a newbie write an admin regarding problems with questing Orlando says: i think she said people that was breaking rules fell under the microscope more often Orlando says: but she's never said not to approach you(emrys) Reflection says: he did write to you Emrys and he said he answer wasnt helpful, when I hear that back it makes me feel helpless because I want to help, you keep saying to put it 'up' the chain of command and then they end up not getting helped Reflection says: this is very frustrating for me, personally Emrys says: see, O, she wouldn't know, which is what we're talking about. it's like that post about spending more time growing the mud and less enforcing rules. She doesn't have much of a clue what we do, and as you noted, players certainly don't. But many of they beleive what they read in the papers. Orlando says: i think this part is going well beyond my spot Reflection says: I think you like to blame me for you PR problems :) Reflection says: and I am here so you can address me directly Emrys says: Reflection I mailed Akeron back a short reply and spent some time talking to him about it later, he didn't agree with some of the substance of the answers but seemed fine enough with me. Orlando says: i think it's safe to say both of you have the same goal Orlando says: both of you want to help the mud Reflection says: which is what I have just said, that he wasnt helped by your answers Emrys says: And I know he knows Unk IRL. Emrys says: there's a difference between getting a real answer taht isn't the one you wanted to hear and not getting a real answer Reflection says: thank you for recognizing that orlando :) War arrives. War tries to wriggle through the field, but fails. War leaves north. Reflection says: well that is a debate you should be having with Akeron Emrys says: I don't need to have it with him. We were fine. War arrives. War says: woohooo, party in the player's guild! War hiccups. Reflection says: I was expressing my frustratiohn at following the 'chain of command' suggestin and having someone report that it wasnt helpful for them War burps. War kicks Orlando hard. Orlando says: ouch Orlando bashes War on the head, causing his knees to buckle! War says: wake up, orlando Raston arrives. Tark arrives through a freak wormhole in the space/time continuum. Reflection says: and I might point out that I did encourage him to mail the admin War's inertia screen flickers momentarily. War deactivates his inertia screen. Grog rejoined the game. War seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Emrys shrugs. War's glowing red pupils fade back to their normal color. Emrys says: Unk and I have both talked to him and his friends quite a bit since that first time. War hiccups. Reflection says: good :) he deserves attention to his questions :) Emrys says: They don't like the way we do some things, and they also raised some bug issues we've been addressing. War hiccups. Emrys says: O, do we disagree on anything here? Or is it all perceptions that we both know are there and all need to work to help people change? Orlando says: i can't find any fundamental differences we have Orlando says: it seems we both agree about improving player interaction War looks drunk. Emrys says: If I at all said anything contary to one of your perception I want to note that that was mostly me trying to say that's an "outdated" perception, not saying people don't have that perception. Orlando says: i feel that will help the mud overall, hopefully with growth and getting more new players Emrys nods. Orlando says: i don't classify myself as a disgruntled player either, i'm certainly not anti-admin Reflection says: but you had some very valid points Orlando says: as far as i know i get along well with all Orlando says: except for my choice of undead friends, i don't hear any negative comments