Transcript of meeting between players and Unk on Saturday Feb 10, 2001: This transcript is presented largely unedited: only irrelevant spam has been deleted from it. The meeting itself lasted a little under one hour. Unk says: Ok. Just a few words on the ground rules of the meeting. Milanion grumbles. Shamgar waves at Unk. Unk says: I'd like to try to do the meeting like last time; ie: if you want to say something, raise your hands, and I'll get to you when I can. Shanker arrives. Shanker thanks Midge. Norbert hiccups. Unk says: If you speak out of turn, I might get grumpy, and you don't want that. Unk grins mischievously. Milanion fears! Nala fears Unk! Shanker gasps. *Luggage doesn't want to lose his qps *Norbert died Unk says: Anyway, I asked players to input topics for discussion in advance, and I didn't get any mail, so I think this will pretty much be a free-for-all discussion. Midge raises an eyebrow. Milanion says: want some mail ? Milanion grins wickedly. Unk says: Midge? Midge says: Result of quest meeting? Milanion hmms. Milanion nods. Freya raises a hand. Unk says: Galeck--I think you'd in the best position to answer this one. Unk says: Or Freya. :-) *Luggage will want to raise his hand in a bit Unk grins at Freya. Galeck says: go ahead Freya :) Freya says: Yeah, Galeck posted on that in the adventurer's guild :) Norbert leaves west. Galeck says: I can summarize if you want me to :) Midge says: Ok that's fine Unk says: Ok. Luggage? Luggage says: well - I think the results could have been worded better *Milanion raises his hand. Unk says: Yes? Milanion says: since we now have E-level players (larger than life even!) are there any plans in store for bigger monsters that give out more exp (and more of a fight). Luggage says: the idea the a select few will rate quests is not a bad thing -- I think we just need to make sure the method is not questionable -- perhaps saying applications will be accepted and the most qualified n people will be placed on the commitee would have been better Milanion says: oops Milanion snickers. Galeck raises his hand. Unk says: Well, we'll come to that in a bit. Unk says: Galeck? Luggage nods. Milanion gives An instruction manual to Milanion. Galeck says: oh... I was just going to respond to that, but if you're coming back to it, I'll wait. Unk says: No, I meant to Milanion's, sorry. Galeck says: oh Galeck says: ok Unk says: Had lag. :-) Galeck says: the decision was... Luggage says: that wasn't aimed at me? Milanion leaves west. Galeck says: that the committee of 4 would get together and decide how many would be accepted and what the criteria would be... we didn't want to discuss it anymore in THAT meeting Luggage nods. Galeck says: so there WILL be criteria posted after the 4 of us get together Galeck says: that's all I have Luggage says: I have no problems with such things -- the main thought is that the selection should be sensible if others look over the applications and have the criteria in mind Luggage says: sounds good to me Galeck says: sorry about the confusion Xnvren arrives. Nietzsche says: i am afraid i didn't understand the post, nor this solution. why are there 4, what exactly are they doing, does everyone's view count, etc Xnvren says: I'm milanion (for the log) Shamgar hehs. Galeck says: Unk's passed this meeting on to me as long as we're on this topic so I can field questions Galeck says: so here goes Galeck says: we picked 4... 2 wizzes, and 2 players... that seemed most interested at the time Galeck says: we are going to decide who gets on the main committee that discusses the new quest ratings system... Galeck says: the 4 is just temporary until criteria is made Galeck says: after that, the committee reviews EVERYONE'S opinions about quests and ratings Galeck says: so if someone feels that the rating for puzzle-solving is too low, the review committee will look at that and decide if that is true Galeck says: for example Galeck says: that way we don't end up with ratings that are set in stone Galeck says: such as the current monster-bashing *'s *Luggage raises his hand Galeck says: that's all I really have Unk says: Luggage? Nietzsche says: well i am rather concerned when a select group of "most interested" is deciding things. not that i don't trust them, but i fear they might consist of hard-core questers. i feel that would be bad since it leaves out a good chunk of dr players Nietzsche says: (I am also more horribly lagged than i remember at any time in the last year) Luggage says: so the committee is basically there to make sure things are sane in the ratings? Luggage says: make sure players aren't telling patent lies about how hard or easy a quest is, etc. Galeck says: yes. and to discuss possible changes.. and yes... Luggage says: vs. thinking players don't have a clue ;) Galeck says: to the second observation Luggage nods. Galeck says: right... we just didn't want people bashing areas based on personal vendettas or frustration with quests or other things Freya would like to respond to Nietzsche briefly. Freya raises an eyebrow at Galeck. Unk says: Freya? Freya says: Nietzsche, we chose a small group of those who were most interested in rating quests, the players on it by their own accounting are far from the best questors on the game *Nala raises a hand Freya says: and we chose a small group to keep the length of discussion time on this topic to a sane amount Freya is done. Unk says: Nala? Nala says: be committee deciding/adjusting QP as well as informatione-type ratings? Galeck says: no Nala nods. Unk raises his hand. Unk says: QP will still be decided by the game quality control team. Galeck nods at Unk. Nala says: OK - be there player input into that - or mayhaps cross-fertilisatione of committrees? Unk says: I think they'd also be permitted to express their own view on the difficulty of the quest to whoever is chosen to rate quests. Nietzsche raises his hand. Unk says: I don't really think we can do player QC very easily: a lot of that involves actual inspection of the code for the area. Nala nods. *Midge raise Luggage nods. Unk says: That all on this subtopic? *Nala wants to add something *Xnvren helps Midge raise his hand. Unk says: Go ahead, Nala. Unk says: I'll get back to the others in a moment. Nala says: juste suggestione - quest rating committee maye uncovere anomalies in QPs givene - mayhaps formale feedbacke to QC woulde bre usefule Unk says: I'm sure they'd be in a position to make comments to QC if something was seen as grossly out of line. Nala says: apologies for typo/parsing problems Nala grins. Nala nods. Unk says: Nietzsche? Nietzsche says: i had to leave at the start of the quest meeting unfortunately, but i wanted to give smore thoughts if that is ok. since there doesn't seem to be a log anywhere, i have no idea if this stuff was covered. *Luggage has to run off... Reflection waves at Luggage. Luggage left the game. Nietzsche says: mostly i wanted to comment that 1) everyone's view should count equally. and 2) only ppl who have solved a quest should be able to rate it. regarding 2) if you are stuck, you have no clue if you were just dumb, or if it really is difficult, you are in no position to rate bashing or funness because you don't know how much you missed. done Unk nods. Unk says: I think Freya might post a log of the meeting, so that we can get back to that later. Nala agrees with Nietzsche. Freya says: Ok, I have most of a log of the meeting, and I can patch it up so people can look at it Unk nods. Galeck raises his hand regarding the log. Unk says: Midge, I'll get back to you--Galeck? Galeck says: sorry about not having a log... strange things happened over here, and I COULDN'T make one... thank you, Freya, for your willingness to take care of that :) Galeck says: the log wasn't left out purposely, is my main point Galeck says: that's all Unk says: Ok. Midge, if your point hasn't been covered yet, fire away. Midge says: QPs adjusted based on how often a quest is completed? Unk says: That's one of the ways in which they're adjusted, yes. Also, we tend to keep QP up higher on the quests we think are of the highest quality. Midge nods. Unk says: As I see it, it seems to make sense to try to push players towards doing what we think are the best things on Darker Realms. :-) Unk says: ANyone else got questions on this topic? Shanker shakes her head. Xnvren says: afk Unk says: Ok. I think then we can move back/forwards to Xnvren/Milanion's question: could you repeat it for those who forgot? Unk says: Oh. Duh. Shanker puts large bean in the disk. Unk says: Anyone else got things they're like to raise in the meantime? Nala pokes Xnvren in the ribs. Xnvren says: back Xnvren hehs. Xnvren says: sorry yall Xnvren says: OK, my question: Xnvren says: now that we have E level players, I would like to know if there is any development towards bigger monsters Xnvren says: with more exp and of course more firepower Xnvren says: woah, its so quiet.... this is like the twilight zone... are yall out there ? Xnvren boggles at the concept. Nala grins. Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Unk says: Ok. Any wizard is free to create bigger monsters if they wish. Giving extra experience would have to be carefully controlled by quality control to avoid unbalancing the game. Shanker says: Indeed Xnvren says: like it isnt already Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Unk says: So while you might get a few monsters which do that, you wouldn't get many. Xnvren nods. Unk says: Well, okay, unbalancing it *more*. Xnvren hehs. Unk says: One thing which has been suggested is that wizards might wish to create Eternal-only areas. Nobody has yet taken us up on that. Nietzsche raises his hand. Galeck raises his hand and winks at Unk. Xnvren says: ask ulysses to, he -loves- to code rooms Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Unk says: Nietzsche? Nietzsche says: on the one hand, i think it is silly to only get 20k xp max for killing, say doofus. but then again, having monsters give 100K xp would screw up the game Unk nods and agrees with Nietzsche. Nietzsche says: done Xnvren says: not if it takes 30 min or more to kill it Nala agrees with Xnvren. Xnvren says: would keep the areas from being cleaned out by players Xnvren says: and nietzsche Xnvren grins. Nietzsche says: another point on that: Nietzsche says: only real high players can cope with those monsters, accelerating their potential above normal players. i think that would be bad *Nala raises a hand Xnvren boggles at the concept. Unk says: I see your point, Nietzsche. Xnvren says: real high players are pretty much maxed out in their guilds Shamgar raises his hand. Xnvren says: they cant go any higher in power, only exp Unk says: Galeck? Galeck says: I just wanted to say that one of my 5 or 6 projects IS an eternal only area, but it's just in the planning stages... I'd mentioned it to Unk before, that's why I winked at him. I assumed he just forgot about it. Xnvren hehs. Xnvren cheers at Galeck. Unk says: I know there are some ideas floating about like that. Just none have opened yet. *Xnvren raises his hand. Unk says: Nala? Nala says: art lots of monsters out of reache of lowere levele players - whye be it differente for one whiche be onlye possible for eternal? Galeck raises his hand regarding Nala's question. Unk says: Galeck? Unk says: (I'll get back to the others soon.) Galeck says: one of the dangers of making large monsters is the potential for smaller chars to 'bump' into them and die quickly... if we make an eternal only area, the chances of that are greatly reduced, therefore bigger and tougher monsters are more likely Nala agrees with Galeck. Shanker nods. Unk nods at Galeck. Nala says: yes ... yet then makes grouping withe eternals difficulte Nala says: realise 'tis a probleme - certainlye do not wante to bump into something unawares Shanker says: The area would only be so big, there is plenty of area to group with eternals. Nala shivers. Unk says: Hopefully, however, it would leave more 'normal' monsters for mortals. Nala nods. Unk says: Spooling backwards -- I think Shamgar is next. Nala says: woulde thou ban non-eternals - or onlye unaccompanied non-eternals? Nala says: sorrye Shamgar says: I have to disagree with nietzsche there. If that is true then why do we have monsters like doofus? Why doesn't everyone have to advance by killing orcs? I think I get where you are going, but when the experience cost to advance increases exponentially at each level you /have/ to have bigger and tougher monsters worth more experience to attack or else you end up hurting ht eplayers who are advancing. You get to a point where it's just not worth even logging your top players on anymore because getting your next level will take you too long with the amount of experience that's available. You just have to make sure that those bigger tougher monsters with more experience are too tough for lower level players where it would make things to easy for them advancement-wise. (Cost/benefit) And as unk said, it has the added benefit of leaving more monsters for the rest of us. Shamgar hehs. Shamgar says: fear me Shamgar snickers. Shamgar says: done Unk says: My response to that is that I think extra-exp monsters have to be the exception rather than the rule. Nietzsche says: well, we don't want to have dozens of players at E37 either... Nietzsche says: otherwise we have to make new challenges for them... Xnvren shrugs. Unk says: If people get to E37, then we have problems, because they're shortly going to overflow the maximum eternal score. Unk throws his head back and cackles with glee. Xnvren hehs. Nala grins. Nala says: move to QP onlye advancemente Shamgar hehs. Xnvren acks. Nietzsche raises his hand again. Nala giggles and pokes Xnvren in the ribs. Xnvren hehs. Nala says: at lev 37 that be Unk says: Xnvren? Xnvren says: ok, this one is about the top players list Unk says: Nietzsche--was your hand-raise on the current topic? Xnvren says: is there any way we can have an active player only top players list? Inactive players are removed until they log back on again Unk says: If so, I'll ask Xnvren to hold off for a moment. Messiah raises a hand or something. Xnvren says: keeps it fresher I think, and even easier to make Nala teases Xnvren. Xnvren tackles Nala. Xnvren grins. Nala ruffles Xnvren's hair. Xnvren says: why do my questions always bring silence ? Xnvren snickers. Shanker says: I couldn't agree more. Shanker says: I didn't play for 6 years and was on the list. Unk says: That's a possibility. It hadn't been suggested to me before, but it's something I'd be willing to consider. Xnvren nods at Shanker. Xnvren thanks Unk. Shanker nods. Nietzsche says: sorry was lagged. what topic were you referring? Nietzsche says: yes it was Nietzsche says: like any RPG with xp, you always have a problem making the game work for all levels. it is extremely difficult to make a system that works for newbies and gods. our current system does as well as can be expected for retaining interest at all levels of concern, so my advice is to leave it alone. Nietzsche says: done Unk says: Messiah? Xnvren says: man... that WAS lag Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Messiah says: i'm not sure whether to consider this a comment or question, but the area i have is typically considered to have tough monsters...yet eternals don't hit it because of easier kills available. will you eternals hit a more eternal oriented area or is it just talk? Xnvren says: thats where the exp problem comes in Nietzsche says: btw, god meant real high player, not real god :) Xnvren says: I get the same ammount for wimpy bahamut as I do for your dark knights Xnvren says: or close to it Messiah says: yup Unk nods. Unk says: Some of the older areas do give out too much experience. Xnvren says: and with time on game being considered for the top players list Unk says: However, it has to be said that we don't want to downgrade them too much as it would annoy a lot of the players. Shanker says: I hit Messiah when the closer to town stuff is already dead, and they almost usually are. Xnvren says: it becomes an issue... how FAST can I earn the exp needed to catch so and so? *Nala raises a hand Unk says: Xnvren, the input of age in the player list is *tiny*. Xnvren says: ok Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. *Nala cancels that hand Nala grins. Unk says: Messiah--if I can just answer you: Messiah says: sure Unk says: The eternals I've spoken to (I think it's about three) have told me that it's not the difficulty of monsters that keeps them out of that area, it's the fact that they think they might die in there. :-) Xnvren laughs out loud. Messiah laughs. Nala grins. Messiah says: die from what? Xnvren says: I got my armor dusted by those aliens today Xnvren says: was about to send you a bill Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Xnvren pokes Messiah in the ribs. Xnvren grins. Messiah ponders the situation. Unk says: Which brings up an idea I had once before, and don't think ever had greatly discussed. Messiah says: i try to make my monsters do more than just 'hp' damage Galeck oohs. Xnvren nods. Xnvren says: I noticed Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Galeck fears Unk's ideas. Messiah says: make them more than 1 dimensinoal Messiah says: dimensional Shanker says: indeed Messiah says: in my opinion Unk says: I once considered the possibility that there should be a maximum experience loss for dying (say, 5 million experience) to reduce the manner in which super-high-level players have to minimize the risk of dying. Messiah says: once you are equipped, most players are DONE Xnvren says: Ah yes... Xnvren nods. Xnvren says: Milanion has lost tens of millions of exp due to the current system Unk says: I don't know if anyone might have comments on that idea. Shanker says: I just died the other day, lost about 6 mil Nietzsche raises his hand. Unk says: Nietzsche? Messiah raises someones hand. Xnvren hehs. Nietzsche says: i would not be in favor of that. it would make my hard learned lessons meaningless Nietzsche grins. Shanker shrugs. Nala agrees with Nietzsche. Xnvren snickers. Freya holds up a sign indicating that the log is in a mostly cleaned up form now. Unk says: Messiah? Messiah says: i agree with nietzsche. *Nala raises a hand Unk says: Nala? Shamgar raises his hand. Nala says: mayhaps compromise betwixt Unk and Nietzsche Nala says: sliding scale yet nay max xp loss Xnvren says: how about losing ALL your exp when you die? Nala grins and pokes Xnvren in the ribs. Xnvren grins. Unk says: Shamgar? Galeck ducks out of Shamgar's way. Nietzsche says: heh. ask for lucifer's opinion on that nala. last i heard, he wants you to lose it all Reflection wonders about a toggle either way, choice between different types of play. Nala nods and sighs. Xnvren says: oh! Nala says: I miss Lucifer Shamgar says: I would be in favor of it. I think it kind of puts a damper on exploring for a lot of people. Capping experience loss would still allow for plenty of hard learned experiences w/out making people overly frustrated when they get killed for being adventourus *Xnvren raises his hand. Reflection agrees with Nala. Shamgar says: not nearly enough of the game gets played now Shamgar says: this might encourage more exploring. Shamgar grins at Galeck. Shamgar says: See, less time I have to type the less long winded I am. Shamgar grins evilly. Unk says: Xnvren? Messiah raises a foot. Shanker chuckles. Xnvren says: never mind, would never work Nala ponders the situation. Xnvren says: it was about getting more exp for fighting in brave mode Xnvren says: but since you can toggle it at any time it would be silly Shanker nods. *Nala has an idea Nietzsche raises his hand. Unk says: Nala? Unk says: (If that was meant to be you raising your hand, at least. :-) Shamgar hehs. Shanker points at Shamgar. Nala says: how about an extensione to toure boothe idea - yet selfe-guided tours. Buye ticket - mayst explore area unmolested - mayhaps evene trye to slaye etc yet not get xp whilste on toure - or lose xp if expire Unk says: There would certainly be some point to extending the tour booth idea. Unk says: It's underused as it is. Nala says: be goode thoughe Unk says: For all who care, Freya's log of the meeting on quests can be seen at: Unk says: http://dr.nostrum.com/dark/log/meeting-on-quests Nala thanks Freya. Freya says: I apologize I didn't get the very first bit of it Xnvren says: it must be a mile long Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Freya says: and for any oddities like the input lines for me emoting, etc. Unk says: Messiah, I'll get back to your point now. Nietzsche stretches his hand even higher. Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Unk says: After that, Nietzsche. Nala tickles Nietzsche. Messiah says: i explore only when forced too (ok, i don't explore period)...exp isn't an issue with me. questions for the players: why do y'all explore? what inspires you to take the time to learn an area versus wait for an area to reset? Xnvren says: ooh! *Nala has an answer Xnvren says: quest points being the number one reason Messiah says: besides that Xnvren says: and finding new gear Messiah says: including that Messiah says: i mean *Nala has another answer, whilst agreeing with Xnvren Shanker says: qps and finding gear and new monsters Xnvren says: big time, found some rockin new stuff in unk's area Shanker says: when bored of the same old, branching out, it's cyclical for me Xnvren says: used to avoid it like the plague Nala says: learning how to get bettere equipped - and seeing cool stuffe Shamgar raises his hand. Nala says: and avoiding boredome Xnvren says: when there are ALOT of people on, gear tends to dissapear Nala agrees with Xnvren. Xnvren says: if you know some secluded spots you can always count on being equipped Galeck raises his hand regarding exploring. Unk nods and thinks we're starting to see the effects of the increasing player base. Emrys quotes: "because it's there" Emrys hehs. Nala says: need big cycle of areas to catche regens woithout hanging arounde Xnvren says: because going back to messiah's point, some people dont like to explore Shamgar kicks Emrys. Xnvren grins. Midge nods. Freya nods at Unk. Shamgar puts his hand down. Unk says: While we're on this topic, I'll take Galeck first (Sorry, Nietzsche). Nala says: and because there's some realluye cool stuffe out there Xnvren says: one other small point was to find new weapons Xnvren says: when Emrys made the announcemtn Norbert arrives. Galeck says: I am RIGHT NOW as we are at this meeting building a travel agency for both old and newland that will have the availability of brochures for new and underused areas, or just anything a wizard wants to advertise as far as exploration Norbert looks drunk. Xnvren says: been looking for the scimitar of shadows for over a month now Xnvren fumes. Shanker pats Xnvren on the head. Nala thanks Galeck, flips head over heels and bounces around. Xnvren cheers at Galeck. Galeck says: so keep your eyes open for that Galeck says: and wizards, start planning brochures :) Unk says: Getting finally back to Nietzsche....:-) Galeck says: ask me about it later, if you're interested, wizards Nietzsche says: i was simply going to say that most anyone can explore safely if they have acquired enough xp for it to matter. invisible, using a horse, etc. there are lots of safe ways to explore. heck, my alchemist randomly teleports to explore Norbert looks drunk. Xnvren agrees with Nietzsche. Nala says: thing be - exploring matters a lot when thou art muche lowere levele than that Xnvren says: or just using a dummy character Messiah raises Norbert. Xnvren laughs out loud. *Norbert died Unk says: Well, one of my exploration rules is: remember you can always 'quit'. Nietzsche says: what i meant was anyone who has acquired the xp will have learned how to explore safely. ask me, i'll explain how to do it. :) Nala says: minde thou - dying matters less Nala grins. Xnvren hehs. Unk says: (Yes, I do play as a mortal, sometimes.) Xnvren says: who ? Xnvren grins evilly. Messiah says: Knu Galeck says: I think Unk is Zoltomar, but I'm not sure. Xnvren throws his head back and cackles. Norbert seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. *Norbert is really heidi klum Unk says: I'll just say it's a secret. Xnvren snickers. Norbert seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Unk says: Messiah? Nala says: his language shalt expose him - one daye Nala grins. Norbert hiccups. Xnvren hehs. Norbert seems to fall, but takes a step and recovers. Messiah says: yes, what if to aid in exploring (and i agree with unk's quit approach) the player has an opportunity to start exploring from the pub in that area? as in, take a player to the pub and they can map out on their own if they so desire. Messiah says: then they have a point of reference to heal from Norbert looks drunk. Unk says: Well, it makes sense for players to locate a pub first thing. :-) Xnvren says: yeah... take them to Kiz's pub Xnvren laughs out loud. Unk says: And a shop. Nala says: probleme be - also need to knowe how to get to area in firste place Norbert hiccups. *Norbert raise hand Unk says: That issue is actually being addressed amongst the admin currently. Galeck raises his hand about this again. Unk says: Norbert? Galeck withdraws his hand. Norbert looks drunk. Norbert says: i think a map of not the areas but a map of areas would be nice to see what is out there Unk nods. Unk says: We're working on ways to make it more obvious what *is* out there. Unk says: Anyone else have something to say on this topic? Shanker shakes her head. Norbert burps. Unk says: Anyone got anything else they'd like to bring up? Norbert burps. Unk smiles. Xnvren hehs. Shanker says: IDoes anyone mind if I head out and do some questing/killing? Unk says: No, I think we'll just call the meeting as over. Nala shakes her head. Xnvren nods. Shanker nods. Nietzsche rejoined the game. Nala nods. Messiah waves. Unk says: I'll probably call another meeting in 6 weeks or so; see if anyone has any good new ideas now. Nala grins. Unk says: Err, by then. :-) Shanker says: Enjoyed this, thakns for doing it. Messiah returns back to the front. Xnvren nods.